By WICF Contributor Pam Victor
[“Geeking
Out with…” is a series of interviews with well-known, highly experienced
improvisers. It’s a chance to talk about stuff that might interest hardcore,
improv dorkwads like Pam. The series can be found in full frontal geek out
version on My Nephew is a Poodle and in pithier
version on the Women in Comedy Festival blog.]
If you could use three words to describe Susan
Messing, what would they be?
 |
| The "loving, fearless, talented" Susan Messing |
“Loving,
fearless, talented.”
-Tim Meadows (Saturday Night Live, Uncle's Brother)
“Well, it will be hard to sum up my
friend Susan in 3 words...
I'll try but I will make it 6 with
adjectives:
Fiercely Loyal
Endlessly Generous
Beautifully Imaginative.”
Fiercely Loyal
Endlessly Generous
Beautifully Imaginative.”
-Kate Duffy (iO Theater, The Second
City)
“Lovely, vulgar, original.”
-TJ Jagodowski (TJ & Dave)
“Brilliant, caring, fearless.”
-Mark Sutton (BASSPROV)
“Wild,
silly, playful and loving.”
– Jet Eveleth (iO Theater)
"Generous, Intuitive, & Original."
- Jake Schneider (iO, ComedySportz, Second City)
"Generous, Intuitive, & Original."
- Jake Schneider (iO, ComedySportz, Second City)
“Ebullient,
welcoming, sincere, and if I had one more – fearless.”
- Angela V. Shelton (Frangela)
“Mama
Chicago Improv"
– Jonathan Pitts
(Executive Director,
Chicago Improv Festival Productions)
Jonathan continues, “She hates when I say
that, but after Joyce Sloane (the original Mama Chicago Improv) passed away, I
say the crown passed to Susan. She's one of the few people who is beloved by
every improv theatre and training center in Chicago.”
Most likely, if I continued to poll her friends and
colleagues, I would hear piles and piles of more love, respect, and admiration
for all that is Susan Messing. But I'll stop myself from polling further because I fear Susan might
tell me to relax my crack and stop being so fucking OCD about collecting
bullshit quotes about her. (Though I do hope she smiles secretly into her coffee in private pleasure after reading them.) As she said to me after listening to me rub raw my
improv musings, “There's just too many cool things to rape, dear goodness, my
poor mommy.” Be still my heart - that woman is speakin’ my language. As our
interview progressed, I quickly could see why her peers love and respect her
so much. Yes, she is all of the above, and much, much more. Ladies and
gentlemen, the incomparable Susan Messing!
Susan Messing has been improvising in Chicago for well over two decades, and was adorned the title of "Funniest Woman in Chicago" by Chicago Magazine. Susan has performed, taught and/or directed at all the major theaters including The Second City, iO Theater and The Annoyance Theater. One of the founding members of The Annoyance Theatre, Susan performed as Cindy in their break out hit The Real Live Brady Bunch as well as adapted and directed the critically acclaimed What Every Girl Should Know... An Ode to Judy Blume, plus something like a wadzillion other shows. She currently performs weekly at The Annoyance in Messing with a Friend, and monthly at The Second City with her three-woman show The Playboys. Susan also is an adjunct professor for DePaul University's Theatre School, and The University of Chicago. She continues to teach at The Annoyance, occasionally at Second City and iO, and will be teaching at Steppenwolf Theatre this summer as well.
***
PAM VICTOR: Tell me
about the first seed of improv that was planted in your heart.
SUSAN MESSING: I was at Northwestern- sophomore year- and I auditioned for their
comedy show, The Meow Show. The
producer that year was some English guy named Dan Patterson - ended up being
the Whose Line is it Anyway? founder.
Whatever. I sucked.
Then junior year, there was
some sort of audition for an improv group in Chicago at a place called ImprovOlympic.
Again, I wasn't cast. But when I graduated with a B.S. (bullshit) in Theatre,
and I was still a terrible actress, my thoughts came around again to that place
and I started taking classes there. [That was] 1986.
The first three guys I met
were Rich Laible, Dave Razowsky, and Mick Napier. My life kind of changed
forever.
PAM: It seems like that time, that era, in
Chicago was a golden time. I mean, there were so many people who just came
together and...stuck.
SUSAN:
Yup. Looking back, it was incredible. These people now run comedy. Seriously.
However, at the time, we were just fucking around, trying to be the best
performers we could be, getting fucked up, and laughing. Pretty incredible in
retrospect.
I wrote incredible twice. So
it must have been pretty great.
PAM: LOL!
SUSAN: And
we had no idea how much our work would blow up. We were just hanging out,
making up fun shit.
Sometimes it makes me sad
that people have quite the agenda now in their work. I always felt that having
more fun than anyone made great work happen with great results. But then again,
it was a different time.
PAM: Is there even a space in Chicago these days for people who just want to have fun and make stuff up?
SUSAN:
Yes. I don't care what peoples' reasoning is for doing it. If they just want to
be famous, that's nice, but know that you can also get famous for killing a
busload of kids. Know that I don't recommend that.
PAM: Hahahaha. Exactly.
SUSAN:
There is always a space for doing anything, including this work, primarily for joy.
Sure. Frankly, I think it makes the ride much easier.
PAM: I do improv because I have to or I
would wither on the vine. Why do you do improv?
SUSAN: It's
my favorite way to create and I get to play. Simple.
And I have brilliant friends
and I get to make up shit with them and then it's over.
And then I get to do it
again. Forever.
PAM: What a blessing.
Would you consider
Mick Napier to be the first real guiding force for your development as an
improviser?
SUSAN:
Well, Charna [Halpern] was my first teacher and then John Harrizal, Del - and
Mick was my first coach and one of my first teachers. I think Mick's influence on
me was his style of comedy. It made so much sense to me, twisted, perverse,
uncensored...
All of my teachers,
including Don DePollo, Michael Gellman, John Michalski, Cary Goldenberg, had
some sort of influence on me, but Mick's comic sensibilities spoke to me. And
of course, I was completely influenced by the brilliant talent of my friends. I
have always just felt lucky not to get kicked offstage. I think I'll always
feel that way.
PAM: So which friends are you referring to
from back then?
SUSAN:
Shit. They're all great. I don't want to make it sound like I'm dropping names.
Look at iO, The Annoyance and Second City and mix and match from 1986 - present.
Seriously. I've either played with them, cried with them, partied with them,
slept with them...
PAM: Ha. Ok. What improv philosophies do
you feel you learned from Mick Napier that continue to serve you well today?
SUSAN: The
best way to take care of your partner is to take care of yourself so they don't
have to worry about you. The first three seconds of the scene is your promise
to the audience of WHO you will be. You don't know what the scene is until the
fucker's over. That if you're onstage you belong there...
And he's had such a sense of
play and whimsy in this shit that I couldn't help but agree with it all. And it
works.
I love iO and Second City
too...However, I think through time we've turned this shit into rocket science and
that can get to be too much. Improv is no longer your bastard cousin of
creation. It's everywhere and used for all sorts of creative shit, and it's
pretty amazing at how legit it's become in the artistic world. I never thought
that today I'd be teaching and performing all over the place, including
universities. Odd.
Charna spoke to the CERN
people - the fancy particle physicists - I mean what the fuck, right???
PAM: Wow. One of my mentors, Will
Luera, is what I consider to be an improv physicist, so actually that makes
perfect sense to me. Plus - and forgive me if this is too woo-woo for you - I
actually think the lessons from improv are all the very best lessons for living
a good life.
SUSAN:
Absolutely.
PAM: So it is a relief to me that smart
people are looking to improv for guidance.
SUSAN:
Sure.
PAM: But what the fuck did the CERN people
want from iO?
SUSAN:
These fuckers hate each other. Each one thinks the others' ideas are for shit.
So no one collaborates. But out of one "shit" idea can come
brilliance. The "shit" idea might ultimately be dropped, but it got
the ball rolling. So we agree and add and there you go...even particle
physicists.
PAM: Especially particle physicists.
SUSAN: Go
figure.…But
everyone comes out with a little more focus, maybe more compassion for others,
and comedy's a brilliant, brilliant teaching tool for everyone, whether you
want to be a comedian or not.
PAM: Tell me about The Annoyance back in
the day. Seems like it was crazyfuncrazy.
SUSAN: The
Annoyance used to be referred to as "The Island of Misfit Toys”…It was a
freak show…irreverent and uncensored. That's not a right as a comedian; that's
a luxury. And when you walk into the Annoyance, the comedy is completely
protected in that you can do and say whatever you want. There are few places in
the world that let you do that, and you don't take that lightly. If comedy
isn't protected, the audience doesn't feel like they can laugh, and that's not
very good when you're doing comedy.
PAM: So just set your history
straight for me. Your first formal improv training and experience was at iO?
You land first in Charna's lap?
SUSAN: Uh
huh,and it was the perfect place to land. I'm so glad that I started it all at ImprovOlympic with her, John, and Del. And then I worked with a group called Metraform
at the same time, which became the Annoyance, while I was studying at
Second City. And then, twelve years later I did Mainstage at Second City.
PAM: Good grief, woman. How absolutely
lovely.
SUSAN: It
certainly didn't suck.
PAM: Sorry. I just got stalled by a moment
of reverence.
SUSAN: In
retrospect it's pretty insane but at the time it made perfect sense to me. And
I don't think I would have or could have done it any other way. I'm way
grateful for the ride.
 |
| Susan Messing |
PAM: Gratitude is the key word.
SUSAN: Always.
PAM: Ok,
back to your first years at iO. It sounds like you and Charna have had a pretty
rollercoastery relationship, which must have been really tough since she had
the keys to the kingdom at the time (and still does). It seems like she was HARD on you, Susan.
What helped you stick it out while other women were quitting?
SUSAN: I
was a masochist and I knew that one day I'd be able to do it. Charna gave me
the hard note. And I had no spine but that's ok. She's one of my VERY best friends
now, but at the time...
PAM: Wait a minute. You can't have no spine
but still have the conviction to stick it out. (Ok, maybe you can, but...)
SUSAN:
Masochist.
PAM: Really? You liked that she was being
hard on you?
SUSAN: Not
in the literal translation, no. I'm sure it would have been MUCH easier had she
liked me; but even if the messenger was a tough ass, the message was good. And
it didn't kill me, and I developed a spine.
She's much mellower on her
students now.
PAM: That’s a relief! What was she giving
you such a hard time about?
SUSAN: You
know what? I have no fucking idea.
PAM: Ha!
SUSAN: All
I know is that when I was put as "the girl" on the "D" team
that became Blue Velveeta, they
treated me like a gem and automatically I was a gem to them, so there you go.
Mick was our coach and he was brilliant, and all of a sudden my work was like
night and day.
PAM: You flourished with the support.
SUSAN: I
think that positive reinforcement seems to work better than negative. Some
would disagree. I don't give the rough notes unless someone can handle it or is
fucking up the dynamic so much that you've got to deal with it. And I'm not
interested in embarrassing people in front of others. I've always felt that
it's MY job to adjust MY semantics so that THEY'LL get it.
Look, my ride is different
from others - many people flourish from equal and opposite direction - and I
could only be who I was at the time that I was that.
PAM: Amen.
SUSAN: I
try to give people a break or the benefit of the doubt until I can't, and then
I rip new assholes and take no prisoners.
PAM: LOL. You worked with Del Close
for many years, and it seems like he was instrumental in your development as an
improviser. What was it about Del that made him such a powerful teacher and
guide?
SUSAN: Del
didn't teach me as much as he AFFIRMED me. When I had his approval, it meant
the world to me. I throw the word "brilliant" around a lot, but he
really was, and since there was no fucking way that I could even have a decent
exchange of ideas with him because he was so so so damn smart, I just chose to
love him and he loved me back. People kind of forgot he was human because he
was such an icon, so I approached him a little differently than maybe most
people. He seemed intimidating but I kind of ignored that.
And I miss him.
PAM: I bet. Tell me who Del was to you. Was
his softer with you than with other people, do you think?
SUSAN:
Definitely. I don't think that many people hugged the guy. People were very
intimidated by him. He could give you a note in class that made you wish the floor
opened up and swallowed you, but I tried to ignore that. I don't know. I just
found him to be really human, and most people didn't approach him emotionally
and that's how I lead. So I kind of broke that barrier, and I'd like to think
that he liked that. He was such a good man to me.
PAM: I think that is the most tender
description of Del Close I've ever heard.
SUSAN: I
just simply loved him. He was a great guy, and although I think he'd be very
amused and pleased at how people have made him a sort of comedy god. Underneath
it all, he was just a really good man who kind of shut that down a bit later in
life, and I refused to keep the door shut.
I have a really cool picture
of him from maybe his SC years, and he's vibrant and sly and just an all around
groovy guy. I don't think he really lost that in my eyes.
PAM: What lessons about improv do you still
carry with you today from Del? (I fear that's a hard question because so much
of everyone else's lessons are built on Del's.)
SUSAN: I
do believe that it's important to treat each other like artists and heroes and
the audience with respect. I do believe you should play at the top of your
intelligence; although in character work I think our opinions aren't the same
as he didn't really give a shit about character work.
Working together to create
immediate brilliance is possible. Improv is not just a means to an end...
...and I love longform so
there you go.
 |
| "...and I love longform so there you go." Susan Messing |
PAM: Me too.
You have a reputation as an amazing teacher. More
than one person has done the “I’m not worthy” hands when describing your
teaching style.
SUSAN: Oh
dear that's nice. Glad I'm not just shitting into the breeze.
PAM: No, Susan Messing. You are definitely
not shitting into the breeze…and if you are, your shit shrapnel has landed all over
the land. In a good way.
SUSAN: Aw.
That's most sweet.
PAM: What do you enjoy most about teaching
improv?
SUSAN: I
guess I'm into the epiphany; I like seeing them get it and fly. I like telling
them they're right and then making them more right. I like pulling comedy out
of commitment and recommitment to their choices. I like supporting them in joy
and discovery instead of standing around inventing tiresome clever.
I like good table manners.
I like pretty pictures.
I like them figuring out how
they can access their brilliance - and for selfish reasons - it'll only make it
easier for me to play with them later on if we happen to meet each other on
stage....if I haven't been kicked off yet because they've discovered that I'm a
hack.
PAM: You are the most marvelous combination
of steely balls and soft, self-depreciator. If you don't mind my saying.
SUSAN: I
am not for the faint of heart, but if you can handle the messenger you'll
definitely get the message.
PAM: Speaking of your way with words...When
I told people that I was interviewing you, they frequently said, “Ask her about
the exercise named _______.” (Fill in the blank with a wonderfully profane
title.) You are famous for creating great exercises with wicked name. Can you
tell me about some of them?
SUSAN:
“Doublemint Twins Get Fucked Up the Ass”? “Good Morning Fucko”? That just helps
to keep us interested, I guess. I'm an improviser - I'm sure I'll make up
something tomorrow with an even more hateful name, but I love that it's entered
the general lexicon.
PAM: Ha! What can we learn from “Doublemint
Twins Get Fucked Up the Ass”?
SUSAN:
Sharing energy. Discovery vs. invention. Listening. Building a scene. Some
basics, but the exercise is maddening and frankly the comedy comes from the
struggle to do it more than anything. When it's over, they're so happy to have
their own opinions back they actually use them. I have a lot of reverse
psychology stuck in there.
I was a girl who got to play
with boys so I guess people seem to think I play balls out.
***
In the Part Two of my geek out session
with Susan Messing,
we expand on the source of Susan’s
ability to appear balls out amazing,
discuss the role of motherhood in her approach to improv as well as
mull over many other profane and
profound improv topics.
***
Catch up on past improv nerd-a-thons:
Geeking
Out with…Chris Gethard of “The Chris Gethard Show”,
…with
Joe Bill of BASSPROV,
….with
Keisha Zollar of Nobody’s Token,
…Jet
Eveleth of The Reckoning,
Pam Victor is the founding member of The Ha-Ha’s, and she producesThe Happier Valley Comedy Shows in Northampton, MA. Pam directs, produces and performs in the comic soap opera web series "Silent H, Deadly H". Pam also writes mostly humorous, mostly true essays and reviews of books, movies and tea on her blog,"My Nephew is a Poodle," where you also can read a lengthier, dorkier version of this interview.
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